The Recording Thread

[twangsta]

WIP


Been struggling to transition to the heavier bits, yet to come. What worked better was dropping the gain. I could still do with less.

Revival hotrod custom into an RR100.

edit: updated the track link with a newer version, added a bridge and riff at the end. Not happy with the double bass drums, it's a place holder for now, also need to beef that section up with bass and change the guitar to one with HB pups.

What do you guys think of the last riff, works? It's a bit choppy midway, and the slightly odd time signature 6/8 I think, needs gluing, half tracked and just added on for not, testing ideas.

 

[twangsta]

Got better at the transitions.

 

[George Dickens]

Got better at the transitions.

"...guys think of the last riff, works? It's a bit choppy midway, and the slightly odd time signature 6/8 "
I think its a cool riff but it only seems to work sometime when it enters specifically when the crash cymbol strikes - it fits great. IMO

 

[Sapient]

"...guys think of the last riff, works? It's a bit choppy midway, and the slightly odd time signature 6/8 "
I think its a cool riff but it only seems to work sometime when it enters specifically when the crash cymbol strikes - it fits great. IMO

That's very cool, but if you are gonna have vocals you're way over doing it. The intro as it appears to be before the verse makes the musical statement for the song and you're "losing it" then going all over the place.

The intro appears to be going into a verse which is cool. You could come back to that intro riff for 4 bars after the first verse. Then do the verse again, then a chorus, then a solo since you have eaten time with the intro.

I would go out with that intro riff too ...alone.

*edit - Great then.

 

[twangsta]

"...guys think of the last riff, works? It's a bit choppy midway, and the slightly odd time signature 6/8 "
I think its a cool riff but it only seems to work sometime when it enters specifically when the crash cymbol strikes - it fits great. IMO

Thank you so much, you are absolutely right, when it enters with the crash is when it works, I was struggling with that given the little time I had. Your point is going to help me a lot tomorrow. Thanks again!

That's very cool, but if you are gonna have vocals you're way over doing it. The intro as it appears to be before the verse makes the musical statement for the song and you're "losing it" then going all over the place.

The intro appears to be going into a verse which is cool. You could come back to that intro riff for 4 bars after the first verse. Then do the verse again, then a chorus, then a solo since you have eaten time with the intro.

I would go out with that intro riff too ...alone.

*edit - Great then.

I'm such a noob, to be honest I only know the parts written change but I can't tell the difference functionally between a verse and a chorus yet, the intro part I guess is the start so that's obvious thankfully

I'd really appreciate if you could point them out with a time stamp if you or anybody else that has the time so that I can understand the process better, I have no clue what's going on as far as song structure, this is the very first riff I've come up with and I'm 45, a software dev by profession.

Thanks for listening, and thank you for raising my awareness on this. It's given me a few pointers to start digging into. I's still very lost on this project but I shall keep trying

 

[ibmorjamn]

Thank you so much, you are absolutely right, when it enters with the crash is when it works, I was struggling with that given the little time I had. Your point is going to help me a lot tomorrow. Thanks again!


I'm such a noob, to be honest I only know the parts written change but I can't tell the difference functionally between a verse and a chorus yet, the intro part I guess is the start so that's obvious thankfully

I'd really appreciate if you could point them out with a time stamp if you or anybody else that has the time so that I can understand the process better, I have no clue what's going on as far as song structure, this is the very first riff I've come up with and I'm 45, a software dev by profession.

Thanks for listening, and thank you for raising my awareness on this. It's given me a few pointers to start digging into. I's still very lost on this project but I shall keep trying

I very much like what you are doing I hear a little Rand and a little Alex Lifeson.The sections are sometimes but not always correlate with the vocal. I find mine by the drum track but I use ez drummer and the are pre arranged. intro is usually 8 bars , Verse is the vocal 8 bars pre chorus 4 bars and chorus 8 bars. So I have been doing intro, verse, chorus , bridge and then repeat the verse chorus. You can stick a solo in the bridge but it's up to you. Your tone and playing is very good ! Intro is kind of long , ends around 113. Cymbal I would say is where the verse starts and the riff gets heavier. I like the intro by the way.

 

[Seventh Son]

In my longtime pursuit of the tone on Maiden's Piece of Mind album, I recently noticed that the guitars on the album are much, much leaner, and, consequently, brighter/present, than anything I've ever recorded at home, even with the Bass knob set to zero. My recordings always have a lot of mud between 100 Hz and 250 Hz, regardless of mic placement or amp settings on my DSL20HR+MX112R. This low-end mud clashes with the bass and contributes a significantly to the perception of a scooped, fizzy tone. In the stock EQ plugin in GarageBand, my recorded tracks exhibit a downward slope from left to right, with a lot of content in the bass and low-mid region, less so in the mids, and about the same or less in the treble region, which tells me that there is something wrong, as the sound appears quite unbalanced. Consequently, I've noticed that carving out the 100–200 Hz section, using a deep medium cut of about 15dB in the stock EQ plugin, contributes a great deal toward getting more clarity in the mix.

My question is, is this normal when close-miking amps and something that is fixed in the mix using deep EQ cuts, or am I possibly dealing with bass build-up in the living room that is getting into the recordings? If this is normal, i.e., the large amount of bass is coming from the amp itself, then my guess is that in order to get the kind of lean, present guitar sound that I want, I would have to address it with something like a parametric EQ in the loop and cut all the muddy frequencies that way.

 

[twangsta]

I very much like what you are doing I hear a little Rand and a little Alex Lifeson.The sections are sometimes but not always correlate with the vocal. I find mine by the drum track but I use ez drummer and the are pre arranged. intro is usually 8 bars , Verse is the vocal 8 bars pre chorus 4 bars and chorus 8 bars. So I have been doing intro, verse, chorus , bridge and then repeat the verse chorus. You can stick a solo in the bridge but it's up to you. Your tone and playing is very good ! Intro is kind of long , ends around 113. Cymbal I would say is where the verse starts and the riff gets heavier. I like the intro by the way.

That's an interesting idea, using the ez drummer pre arranged tracks, I shall revisit this track with that approach. Thank you very much for the kinds words.

Sorry about the late reply, haven't been around much.

 

[twangsta]

In my longtime pursuit of the tone on Maiden's Piece of Mind album, I recently noticed that the guitars on the album are much, much leaner, and, consequently, brighter/present, than anything I've ever recorded at home, even with the Bass knob set to zero. My recordings always have a lot of mud between 100 Hz and 250 Hz, regardless of mic placement or amp settings on my DSL20HR+MX112R. This low-end mud clashes with the bass and contributes a significantly to the perception of a scooped, fizzy tone. In the stock EQ plugin in GarageBand, my recorded tracks exhibit a downward slope from left to right, with a lot of content in the bass and low-mid region, less so in the mids, and about the same or less in the treble region, which tells me that there is something wrong, as the sound appears quite unbalanced. Consequently, I've noticed that carving out the 100–200 Hz section, using a deep medium cut of about 15dB in the stock EQ plugin, contributes a great deal toward getting more clarity in the mix.

My question is, is this normal when close-miking amps and something that is fixed in the mix using deep EQ cuts, or am I possibly dealing with bass build-up in the living room that is getting into the recordings? If this is normal, i.e., the large amount of bass is coming from the amp itself, then my guess is that in order to get the kind of lean, present guitar sound that I want, I would have to address it with something like a parametric EQ in the loop and cut all the muddy frequencies that way.

My cab has G12-T75 speakers, and I use an SM57. I place the mic closer to the edge of the cone perpendicular to the baffle. Using less gain can help, but the whole tone chain needs to be working together to get the best results you can muster up. I'm a noob to be honest, I find it easier if the source sounds good, the rest gets easier. Keep experimenting, what's your tone chain like, guitar, pickups, pedals, cab speaker, etc. Bass is the enemy of high gain, need to tame it, I find I sometimes use the DD YJM 308 as an eq as it's bass cut is superb end of your pedal chain, I just roll the gain completely off and keep the volume at unity if I don't want any boost from it.

 

[Seventh Son]

I was wondering, how much distortion do you guys hear in these isolated tracks (note that the left guitar is on the left channel, and the right guitar on the right channel)? What do you hear in terms of bass, middle, treble? How would you describe what you are hearing?

 

[RCM 800]

I was wondering, how much distortion do you guys hear in these isolated tracks (note that the left guitar is on the left channel, and the right guitar on the right channel)? What do you hear in terms of bass, middle, treble? How would you describe what you are hearing?

to me it sounds like the amps are running wide open or close to it. Probably a little bass cut but still has lows.

 

[G Dunn]

My current "trick" for recording guitars is using the Headrush board direct into Reaper, if you get the right IR you can dial in a really good sound and not have to fuss with isolating a cab for a roaring 100 watt amp.

 

[mcblink]

My current "trick" for recording guitars is using the Headrush board direct into Reaper, if you get the right IR you can dial in a really good sound and not have to fuss with isolating a cab for a roaring 100 watt amp.

That is NOWHERE near as fun though

 

[G Dunn]

That is NOWHERE near as fun though

This is true, but at 3 am my neighbors appreciate it ;-P

 

[Elvis Legg]

In my longtime pursuit of the tone on Maiden's Piece of Mind album, I recently noticed that the guitars on the album are much, much leaner, and, consequently, brighter/present, than anything I've ever recorded at home, even with the Bass knob set to zero. My recordings always have a lot of mud between 100 Hz and 250 Hz, regardless of mic placement or amp settings on my DSL20HR+MX112R. This low-end mud clashes with the bass and contributes a significantly to the perception of a scooped, fizzy tone. In the stock EQ plugin in GarageBand, my recorded tracks exhibit a downward slope from left to right, with a lot of content in the bass and low-mid region, less so in the mids, and about the same or less in the treble region, which tells me that there is something wrong, as the sound appears quite unbalanced. Consequently, I've noticed that carving out the 100–200 Hz section, using a deep medium cut of about 15dB in the stock EQ plugin, contributes a great deal toward getting more clarity in the mix.

My question is, is this normal when close-miking amps and something that is fixed in the mix using deep EQ cuts, or am I possibly dealing with bass build-up in the living room that is getting into the recordings? If this is normal, i.e., the large amount of bass is coming from the amp itself, then my guess is that in order to get the kind of lean, present guitar sound that I want, I would have to address it with something like a parametric EQ in the loop and cut all the muddy frequencies that way.

What mic are you using while you record? Is the amp on the floor while you record? If it is then that can cause problems with the bottom end as the floor acts as a bass trap. Try lifting the amp a foot or so off the ground onto a chair or a crate or something and see if that makes a difference. Also, if they amp is in the corner of the room, that can also act as a bass trap. It's also worth finding the sweet spot on your speaker by having somebody play through the amp or reamping a DIed guitar signal through it and playing it from your DAW and moving the mic around in front of the speaker while you listen through in ear headphones with a pair of ear defenders worn over the top of them. Small movements can make significant differences to the sound. Then mark the spot that you like with a cross of electrical tape with the inner corner of the cross denoting the sweet spot, so that you know exactly where to put the mic next time.

Also, a high pass filter can really clean things up if there is still some mud there. Sometimes when I'm mixing live, which I do most weekends, I have high pass filters set as high as 250Hz on guitar mics when I think the sound calls for it. There really isn't any need for a PA to be reinforcing and frequencies below 100Hz from a guitar as it will only clash with frequencies produced by a bass or kick drum. The same is usually true of recording, particularly in rock music with a full band. When EQing, always remember, a cut is worth a thousand boosts. The main tip I would give is to get the tone right from your amp in the first place. The less you have to do to it in the mix, the better. Keep working on it and you'll get used to knowing how mics "hear" things as opposed to how your ears hear things.

Regarding the Trooper isolated guitar tracks, which are superb, by the way, I'm hearing very little in the way of bottom end, nothing much all all below about 150Hz, and I would say that those amps were turned up LOUD whilst being recorded. Less gain on the mic preamp can equal less flobber in the bottom end. The highs aren't harsh or fizzy at all and I suspect a low pass filter has also been used in mixing. The sound is mostly cutting, midrange grunt, not excessive amounts of gain either, which gives clarity in the sound. Of course, the playing is very clean too.

 

[Seventh Son]

What mic are you using while you record? Is the amp on the floor while you record? If it is then that can cause problems with the bottom end as the floor acts as a bass trap. Try lifting the amp a foot or so off the ground onto a chair or a crate or something and see if that makes a difference. Also, if they amp is in the corner of the room, that can also act as a bass trap. It's also worth finding the sweet spot on your speaker by having somebody play through the amp or reamping a DIed guitar signal through it and playing it from your DAW and moving the mic around in front of the speaker while you listen through in ear headphones with a pair of ear defenders worn over the top of them. Small movements can make significant differences to the sound. Then mark the spot that you like with a cross of electrical tape with the inner corner of the cross denoting the sweet spot, so that you know exactly where to put the mic next time.

Also, a high pass filter can really clean things up if there is still some mud there. Sometimes when I'm mixing live, which I do most weekends, I have high pass filters set as high as 250Hz on guitar mics when I think the sound calls for it. There really isn't any need for a PA to be reinforcing and frequencies below 100Hz from a guitar as it will only clash with frequencies produced by a bass or kick drum. The same is usually true of recording, particularly in rock music with a full band. When EQing, always remember, a cut is worth a thousand boosts. The main tip I would give is to get the tone right from your amp in the first place. The less you have to do to it in the mix, the better. Keep working on it and you'll get used to knowing how mics "hear" things as opposed to how your ears hear things.

Regarding the Trooper isolated guitar tracks, which are superb, by the way, I'm hearing very little in the way of bottom end, nothing much all all below about 150Hz, and I would say that those amps were turned up LOUD whilst being recorded. Less gain on the mic preamp can equal less flobber in the bottom end. The highs aren't harsh or fizzy at all and I suspect a low pass filter has also been used in mixing. The sound is mostly cutting, midrange grunt, not excessive amounts of gain either, which gives clarity in the sound. Of course, the playing is very clean too.

Thank you for all the info. Lots of good stuff to unpack. I own two SM57s and an SM58, but have used just one SM57 for recording. In the past, I followed the advice to lift the cab off the ground, but lately I've been experimenting with ground placement again after noticing that many pros, including Maiden on occasion, just mic whatever speaker seems to sound best. Personally, I think off the ground affords a crisper tone, but it is not a massive difference, but rather maybe one piece of a puzzle that one could manipulate to get the desired result, depending on what one is after at the moment.

As for mic placement, this has been something that I've grappled with for years. The conventional (majority) concensus for miking a V30 has been to place the SM57 where cap meets cone, about an inch, or maybe two, from the grille, whereas some guys like it just short of touching the grille. In my personal practice, I've seemed to gravitate towards all the way on the grille, as the SM57 seems to fill out the lower mids better in that placement, especially if placed at cap edge, where moving the mic farther away from the grille seems to emphasize the fizzy frequencies emanating from the center. I am curious about your approach, where you seem to believe that each speaker has a sweet spot, which may not be at cap edge. Although I like mic placements outside of the cap (on the cone), especially the way they emphasize the body frequencies and smooth out the top end (which is what I want from my tone; smooth, thick upper-register notes, just like Dave's guitar on the left in the "The Trooper" harmony), I also find that the minute I start moving the mic away from the cap edge, the tone gets too dark and acquires that blanket-over-the-speaker quality that then clashes with the bass and muddies up the mix. I don't like the high end of the cap-edge placement, either, but that has seemed like the least of all evils to me. What are your thoughts on mic placement, and how would you describe the "sweet spot"? What do you look for, sonically, in the search for the sweet spot? And, how do you dial in the amp in the first place, given that small differences in cab placement or our relative position to it can affect what we hear and, consequently, how we dial in an amp? Given how lean and tight the low end is on "The Trooper" guitars, I also wonder whether it is even possible to achieve that at the source, rather than through EQ in post/at the board.

Recently, I have started noticing that I can get closer to the clarity in the guitars I hear on "The Trooper" by high-passing the low end very aggressively. Absent more specific information on how Martin Birch went about things, my current hunch is that he must have high-passed the guitars very aggressively. Until recently, I used to do what everyone else does, high passing the guitars around the typical 70–80Hz spot, but I've noticed a vast improvement in outcome when I high-pass around 190–200Hz, varying the slope until it sounds right, which seems to happen around 12db/Oct. Somewhere around there seems to capture the vibe of Piece of Mind / "The Trooper" best. When it comes to classic British metal, to me, the production of the Piece of Mind guitars is the gold standard. I love how bright and tight they are, but also very throaty in the (low) mids, with a a lot of cut, while also super round and thick in the highs. I am glad you appreciated that aesthetic, as well, from the original isolated tracks. I also love, love, love their darker and heavier guitars on Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, but that's a much more modern, progressive take on their sound. For something classic, more of a straightforward rock tone, Piece of Mind is the absolute gold standard for me. The way those guitars sit in the mix is a thing of beauty for me every time I analyze the mix as such.

 

[StratoMarshall]

Everyone has their tricks but this is the way I do it with a 57.
Sorry for the crappy drawing, not an artist!
I usually place the 57 at the center of the speaker then rotate the mic perpendicular to the cone.
Moving the position of the mic along the cone (yes from outside the speaker grille) will result in different tones.
I have found the thickest tone to be about an inch and half to two inches from the dust cap.
I have used this positioning while doing live sound reinforcement both touring and locally and get really good results.
Also use it in the studio and it sounds great! YMMV.

 

[Seventh Son]

Everyone has their tricks but this is the way I do it with a 57.
Sorry for the crappy drawing, not an artist!
I usually place the 57 at the center of the speaker then rotate the mic perpendicular to the cone.
Moving the position of the mic along the cone (yes from outside the speaker grille) will result in different tones.
I have found the thickest tone to be about an inch and half to two inches from the dust cap.
I have used this positioning while doing live sound reinforcement both touring and locally and get really good results.
Also use it in the studio and it sounds great! YMMV.
View attachment 126189

I just had a follow-up question. Is this what you had in mind?

 

[Elvis Legg]

Thank you for all the info. Lots of good stuff to unpack. I own two SM57s and an SM58, but have used just one SM57 for recording. In the past, I followed the advice to lift the cab off the ground, but lately I've been experimenting with ground placement again after noticing that many pros, including Maiden on occasion, just mic whatever speaker seems to sound best. Personally, I think off the ground affords a crisper tone, but it is not a massive difference, but rather maybe one piece of a puzzle that one could manipulate to get the desired result, depending on what one is after at the moment.

As for mic placement, this has been something that I've grappled with for years. The conventional (majority) concensus for miking a V30 has been to place the SM57 where cap meets cone, about an inch, or maybe two, from the grille, whereas some guys like it just short of touching the grille. In my personal practice, I've seemed to gravitate towards all the way on the grille, as the SM57 seems to fill out the lower mids better in that placement, especially if placed at cap edge, where moving the mic farther away from the grille seems to emphasize the fizzy frequencies emanating from the center. I am curious about your approach, where you seem to believe that each speaker has a sweet spot, which may not be at cap edge. Although I like mic placements outside of the cap (on the cone), especially the way they emphasize the body frequencies and smooth out the top end (which is what I want from my tone; smooth, thick upper-register notes, just like Dave's guitar on the left in the "The Trooper" harmony), I also find that the minute I start moving the mic away from the cap edge, the tone gets too dark and acquires that blanket-over-the-speaker quality that then clashes with the bass and muddies up the mix. I don't like the high end of the cap-edge placement, either, but that has seemed like the least of all evils to me. What are your thoughts on mic placement, and how would you describe the "sweet spot"? What do you look for, sonically, in the search for the sweet spot? And, how do you dial in the amp in the first place, given that small differences in cab placement or our relative position to it can affect what we hear and, consequently, how we dial in an amp? Given how lean and tight the low end is on "The Trooper" guitars, I also wonder whether it is even possible to achieve that at the source, rather than through EQ in post/at the board.

Recently, I have started noticing that I can get closer to the clarity in the guitars I hear on "The Trooper" by high-passing the low end very aggressively. Absent more specific information on how Martin Birch went about things, my current hunch is that he must have high-passed the guitars very aggressively. Until recently, I used to do what everyone else does, high passing the guitars around the typical 70–80Hz spot, but I've noticed a vast improvement in outcome when I high-pass around 190–200Hz, varying the slope until it sounds right, which seems to happen around 12db/Oct. Somewhere around there seems to capture the vibe of Piece of Mind / "The Trooper" best. When it comes to classic British metal, to me, the production of the Piece of Mind guitars is the gold standard. I love how bright and tight they are, but also very throaty in the (low) mids, with a a lot of cut, while also super round and thick in the highs. I am glad you appreciated that aesthetic, as well, from the original isolated tracks. I also love, love, love their darker and heavier guitars on Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, but that's a much more modern, progressive take on their sound. For something classic, more of a straightforward rock tone, Piece of Mind is the absolute gold standard for me. The way those guitars sit in the mix is a thing of beauty for me every time I analyze the mix as such.

The sweet spot to me is subjective, and it will be different for different people depending on what they are looking for tone wise. I generally listen for the most rounded tone, which gives me the most low and high mids, the least flobber and fizz and which gives me the most signal into the mic, this means I can use as little preamp gain as is necessary. I think you are in the right ball park as it is often near the edge of the dust cap, but if you try the method that I have described to you, you can really pinpoint it. When I am dialling in an amp, I try to start with an idea of what I want to get out of it and then take it from there, working across the tone pots and adding in the tones that I think I want, then listen, assess it and make changes as necessary. Generally speaking, as a sound engineer, I look to minimise the bottom end coming from a guitar amp as well as keeping the highs under control. Lots of bottom end isn't necessary and it will muddy your mix, out of control highs will cause guitars to sound harsh and piercing and will clash with vocal sibilance and intelligibility, and with kick drum click and clarity. I try to use the least gain necessary for the sound that I want but turn the amp up loud in order to get the power tubes working hard and breaking up. I own a Mesa Boogie Mark III blue stripe 60 watt and a '67 Super Lead 100, which I have made a video demo of, posted in the amp forum. I know both amps inside out and I know what works with them and what doesn't. I think knowing the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of your gear is essential in getting a good recording. The video includes settings, mics, mixing info, which was actually very simple for that one.

The SM57 is a great, versatile mic, and is my go to for close miking. I like to get the mic right up to the grille as the proximity definitely gives more low mid body. SM57s are rolled off at around 200Hz, hence why they work so well on guitar cabs. An SM58 with the grille removed will also work really well on a guitar cab. You could try one mic pointed directly at the speaker and one angled towards the cone at around 45 degress, as in the diagrams above, and then mixed in to taste. I believe Eddie Van Halen used this method of miking on his earlier albums. I also like to use a room mic, usually a condenser about 6 to 8 feet away from the cab and above it.

Agressively high passing distorted guitars is the way to go. I know that some guitarists don't like to hear it but I have mixed thousands of bands live over the years, and recorded many as well and it just works in the context of a mix. Bassy sounding electric guitars don't, 9 times out of 10. The high pass filter is your friend and can be used liberally!

 

[StratoMarshall]

I just had a follow-up question. Is this what you had in mind?
View attachment 126200

Yes sir!