Shouldn't have plugged into it...Friedman Runt

Maxbrothman

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I'm a fan of the older 2000 DSLs, gigged one for several years. Had several newer ones and while they can be dialed in to sound good the Friedmans do the thing they are trying to accomplish much MUCH better. Sustain without fizz. Night and day when you have them side by side.

Just the fact that a YouTube vid can make them sound very similar is a testament to how relatively useless these clips are.
Something I don't understand is the last part about how useless these video clips are.

If video clips are useless, aren't we also implying that if we record audio, it will be just as useless?

A video clip is visual + audio. If we remove the visuals, we have an audio recording. If our gear tones can't be recorded... then that's a problem, I would think.

Here is another question I have. If Friedman amps are doing something different and maybe a bit better, then where are they at festivals and gigs? Any time I go to a festival or a gig I see Friedman up there like maybe 1% of the time. 50% Kemper (easy to transport). Marshall, Peavey 6505s, Mesa Rectifier, Fender, Vox. I hardly ever see a Friedman. I would expect that if Friedman were such a game changer in tone, we would hear and see them revolutionize things like those amps did. That is not happening. Why not?

That's what puzzles me.
 

tallcoolone

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If video clips are useless, aren't we also implying that if we record audio, it will be just as useless?
YouTube clips are very compressed and usually recorded with cheap gear on top of that. Plus, usually the young/less disposable income crowd has more time to click on YT vids all day. People get emotional about gear--anything that 'proves' something expensive or out of reach 'isn't worth it' will get a ton of clicks which makes these YT jockeys money.
That is not happening. Why not?

That's what puzzles me.
Well I've been given free gear by a couple of the companies you listed. I have spoken with Dave several times but he's never given me squat. That would be a reasonable explanation right there.
 

Ufoscorpion

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I only played the Cantrell 20 watt and am floored
Friedman is my next amp
Do i keep my 2210 and buy a Friedman Runt or a Ceriatone Friedman version? Hmmmmm
Decision’s, lol .
 

Ufoscorpion

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Don’t want to sound like I’m allways putting Marshall amps down so even though it’s off subject I would like to say I’m still really digging my Ori50h. Really really digging it .
 

Maxbrothman

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YouTube clips are very compressed and usually recorded with cheap gear on top of that. Plus, usually the young/less disposable income crowd has more time to click on YT vids all day. People get emotional about gear--anything that 'proves' something expensive or out of reach 'isn't worth it' will get a ton of clicks which makes these YT jockeys money.

Well I've been given free gear by a couple of the companies you listed. I have spoken with Dave several times but he's never given me squat. That would be a reasonable explanation right there.

I have found in Marshall vs. Friedman discussions that it is subjective but that the lines blur when it comes to blind comparison tests like the one that YouTube did between the DSL20 and the JJ. I don't think the guy meets the demographics you listed, except maybe doing it for the likes. I caught onto that video because he did some gut shots of a JJ before it and was impressed with what he saw. Then he did that comparison video and wasn't so impressed with the cost differences. Not that he didn't like the JJ. He did. He just felt the price difference wasn't worth it. Someone probably told him to try out the DSL20 to see what he thinks of the JJ after that.

The other thing is that while live is always a different experience, many people want to record their gear, and even those manufacturers want to be able to demo their goods in YouTube videos. Yet when it comes down to professional studios demoing this gear, it usually sounds like... the sound engineer/guitarist who plays it. Surprise. They sound like themselves.

Also, when it comes to gear prices, I think there is a big difference between paying a few hundred for something and a few thousand, but when you are into the thousands, you might as well keep going. If you are going to pay a grand and a half on an amp, what's another five hundred (well, it's another 500)? You are already paying whopping sums of money, so you might as well pay more if you need more rather than pay a lot and still come up short.

I don't own 100W Marshall amps, not because I can't afford them but because I simply have no use for 100W Marshall. It would be unusable for me. Since I would be attenuating, I just get the smaller wattage with the same pre-amp section, minus two power tubes.

I do think most guitar gear is way too expensive, though. Any time I have asked how those prices can be justified, eventually, it boils down to someone defending those costs, like a defense attorney trying to defend a murderer. It becomes "they are under no obligation to show you how much it costs them to have these units made, imported, and their markup." .... or... "the burden of proof is on you to show us how they are screwing us over." This is true, but I can't help feeling we are probably paying way over-the-top prices on something worth much less. Like a whole pile less.
 

TheLoudness!!

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I have found in Marshall vs. Friedman discussions that it is subjective but that the lines blur when it comes to blind comparison tests like the one that YouTube did between the DSL20 and the JJ. I don't think the guy meets the demographics you listed, except maybe doing it for the likes. I caught onto that video because he did some gut shots of a JJ before it and was impressed with what he saw. Then he did that comparison video and wasn't so impressed with the cost differences. Not that he didn't like the JJ. He did. He just felt the price difference wasn't worth it. Someone probably told him to try out the DSL20 to see what he thinks of the JJ after that.

The other thing is that while live is always a different experience, many people want to record their gear, and even those manufacturers want to be able to demo their goods in YouTube videos. Yet when it comes down to professional studios demoing this gear, it usually sounds like... the sound engineer/guitarist who plays it. Surprise. They sound like themselves.

Also, when it comes to gear prices, I think there is a big difference between paying a few hundred for something and a few thousand, but when you are into the thousands, you might as well keep going. If you are going to pay a grand and a half on an amp, what's another five hundred (well, it's another 500)? You are already paying whopping sums of money, so you might as well pay more if you need more rather than pay a lot and still come up short.

I don't own 100W Marshall amps, not because I can't afford them but because I simply have no use for 100W Marshall. It would be unusable for me. Since I would be attenuating, I just get the smaller wattage with the same pre-amp section, minus two power tubes.

I do think most guitar gear is way too expensive, though. Any time I have asked how those prices can be justified, eventually, it boils down to someone defending those costs, like a defense attorney trying to defend a murderer. It becomes "they are under no obligation to show you how much it costs them to have these units made, imported, and their markup." .... or... "the burden of proof is on you to show us how they are screwing us over." This is true, but I can't help feeling we are probably paying way over-the-top prices on something worth much less. Like a whole pile less.

I agree with this by a whole lot. I don't have a pile of money but if I'm paying a premium price for something, I expect a premium product. Build quality better be on point for the price paid.

Tone is highly subjective of course. I believe this will make a purchase either worth it or not worth it to the buyer. I try to research the hell out of something before buying it. Or at least have an idea of what I'm getting into.

On some gear, I've splurged over the years and really thought it was a waste of money over certain lower priced options after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.
 

tallcoolone

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I have found in Marshall vs. Friedman discussions that it is subjective but that the lines blur when it comes to blind comparison tests like the one that YouTube did between the DSL20 and the JJ. I don't think the guy meets the demographics you listed, except maybe doing it for the likes. I caught onto that video because he did some gut shots of a JJ before it and was impressed with what he saw. Then he did that comparison video and wasn't so impressed with the cost differences. Not that he didn't like the JJ. He did. He just felt the price difference wasn't worth it. Someone probably told him to try out the DSL20 to see what he thinks of the JJ after that.

The other thing is that while live is always a different experience, many people want to record their gear, and even those manufacturers want to be able to demo their goods in YouTube videos. Yet when it comes down to professional studios demoing this gear, it usually sounds like... the sound engineer/guitarist who plays it. Surprise. They sound like themselves.

Also, when it comes to gear prices, I think there is a big difference between paying a few hundred for something and a few thousand, but when you are into the thousands, you might as well keep going. If you are going to pay a grand and a half on an amp, what's another five hundred (well, it's another 500)? You are already paying whopping sums of money, so you might as well pay more if you need more rather than pay a lot and still come up short.

I don't own 100W Marshall amps, not because I can't afford them but because I simply have no use for 100W Marshall. It would be unusable for me. Since I would be attenuating, I just get the smaller wattage with the same pre-amp section, minus two power tubes.

I do think most guitar gear is way too expensive, though. Any time I have asked how those prices can be justified, eventually, it boils down to someone defending those costs, like a defense attorney trying to defend a murderer. It becomes "they are under no obligation to show you how much it costs them to have these units made, imported, and their markup." .... or... "the burden of proof is on you to show us how they are screwing us over." This is true, but I can't help feeling we are probably paying way over-the-top prices on something worth much less. Like a whole pile less.
Well I sold my last 100w Marshall (1959hw) a couple months ago for the reasons you mentioned. I took a DSL20H in trade so I'm familiar with that but I've never plugged into a JJJr so I can't weigh in there.

YT players are looking for clicks and "not worth the money" posts are gold for clicks so I inherently don't trust them at all. I love watching posts by members here, and whenever I record a show using something new I try and at least post a taste. Yeah it isn't a great representation but it is something and it gives people an idea of what I look for. It's music, right? Should be shared!

As far as costs, the 2 Studio heads in my sig will be the last Marshalls I buy new for a while. I really enjoy them but all the Marshall stuff is cost prohibitive here in the US right now. That being said, every single thing on the planet has skyrocketed in price over the last 18-24 months so whether you are buying a guitar, or a boat, or a car, or construction materials, or fuel...it's all way too expensive. No defending a murderer lol, just pointing out that if you are looking at 2 channel hand wired amp heads not sure how many you are going to find on the cheap these days.
 

tallcoolone

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Bogner Helios 50 is $3k, trying to think of other comparable amps...
 

Maxbrothman

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Bogner Helios 50 is $3k, trying to think of other comparable amps...
It is one thing to try and justify the cost of a guitar amplifier like that...

... and quite another when it comes to a microphone that costs three times that.

 

Maxbrothman

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I agree with this by a whole lot. I don't have a pile of money but if I'm paying a premium price for something, I expect a premium product. Build quality better be on point for the price paid.

Tone is highly subjective of course. I believe this will make a purchase either worth it or not worth it to the buyer. I try to research the hell out of something before buying it. Or at least have an idea of what I'm getting into.

On some gear, I've splurged over the years and really thought it was a waste of money over certain lower priced options after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.
The way I look at it these days is if an amp costs like top shelf money, like over a grand, and especially if it is hitting two and three, then it is a big-ticket amp IMO, meaning you should be up on stage playing well enough for people to part with their hard-earned money and be satisfied with what you did and therefore justify the cost by having your gigs pay it back.

That's just me, though. I am sure there are plenty of people with Soldano, Diezel, and other top-tier amps, for just playing and enjoyment in their basement because life is too short. More power to them. I would feel guilty myself, but that is just me. Like I would slap my head every time I see it saying, "why did I part with so much money for that, just for a tone!"

My current dilemma is with a Tone King. They sound insanely good. I love Neil Young's tone. He has a moded 6L6 Fender Tweed custom. The problem is I don't have a barn to crank one of them in. However, those Tone Kings do an excellent job of nailing his tone and have an attenuator. Plus, you get Fender Blackface tones with it. The problem is the prices are obscene. You can get a used car from 2005 - 2010 at those prices.
 

tallcoolone

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The way I look at it these days is if an amp costs like top shelf money, like over a grand, and especially if it is hitting two and three, then it is a big-ticket amp IMO, meaning you should be up on stage playing well enough for people to part with their hard-earned money and be satisfied with what you did and therefore justify the cost by having your gigs pay it back.

That's just me, though. I am sure there are plenty of people with Soldano, Diezel, and other top-tier amps, for just playing and enjoyment in their basement because life is too short. More power to them. I would feel guilty myself, but that is just me. Like I would slap my head every time I see it saying, "why did I part with so much money for that, just for a tone!"

My current dilemma is with a Tone King. They sound insanely good. I love Neil Young's tone. He has a moded 6L6 Fender Tweed custom. The problem is I don't have a barn to crank one of them in. However, those Tone Kings do an excellent job of nailing his tone and have an attenuator. Plus, you get Fender Blackface tones with it. The problem is the prices are obscene. You can get a used car from 2005 - 2010 at those prices.
Well I do use my amps to make money and yeah that money always goes back into gear but I can assure you I have to supplement that fund lol

But yes, of course--no one needs a $2k amp head to sound fantastic. The contrary is prob more correct--people buy the wrong tools then spend more $$ trying to make them work in their situation
 

Maxbrothman

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Not much hand wiring inside a Runt.

View attachment 113237
HARDwired, not HANDwired, hehe.

If it were handwired, that would explain the price tags.

What I mean by hardwired, is the tubescreamer components are in the amp, or parametric EQ settings, or cock wah circuit. Let's say you liked the sound of a cocked wah at a certain point in a JCM800. Then mod the JCM800 with that cocked wah circuit, and there you have it in one unit.


CockFight-1.jpg


I am discovering that some pedals are two or more pedal circuits in one unit. That you can get the same sound with two pedals.

Things like that.

You could design an amp just for fuzz alone by taking a fuzz circuit from some pedal and hardwiring it into an amp as a mod.
 

ricksdisconnected

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I only played the Cantrell 20 watt and am floored
Friedman is my next amp
Do i keep my 2210 and buy a Friedman Runt or a Ceriatone Friedman version? Hmmmmm
thats up to you bro. try a few Friedman before you go Ceriatone. seriously.
Ceri makes a good amp but the Runt, JJ jr, and that damn Pink Taco will
send you for a loop bro. they are just stupid with tones.
 

ricksdisconnected

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I can tell, I was being facetious. Friedmans are not "better Marshalls". They are different amps entirely that can sound similar when tweaked. I've never played a Freidman that had the cut and kerrang of a good Marshall. I've never had a Marshall that had the punch and girth of a Friedman.

I've played dozens of BE circuits, back about 10 yrs ago when Dave was mostly modding guys in my circle would lust after these, we all had at least one at some point in time. To test whether or not I'd like the Twin Sister I borrowed a Dirty Shirley for a few weeks. Before I ordered the Smallbox I checked one out over at Music Mill. Modern amps are incredibly consistent due to advances in manufacturing.

Not nowadays. My Orange OR50 sounds like every other OR50--back in the day, builders used to use whatever they could get the best deal on or what they had lying around at the time. Not the case now--most of the manufacturing process is automated, even on 'hand wired' amps. Component values do not vary within models anymore. They used to. Drastically sometimes.

Assuming tubes are consistent I believe yes you can do just this. See above--this isn't 1978.

This is true--humidity is a real factor and can really F up a great rig. Usually at just the wrong time.
dont argue with this guys just take his word for it.
 

jchrisf

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For the most part, what Friedman did, was to do what people were asking Marshall to do, but wouldn't, which was to make their tones accessible in smaller places than open-air festivals and professional studios. Meaning home playing.
That's why I bought the Ceriatone 2204.. so I could mod it a bit and get what I want out of a 2204. It sounds great as it is with or without pedals so I may bring it back to stock but I'm hoping to get a tone I'll be completely happy with and not someone else's version
Not much hand wiring inside a Runt.

View attachment 113237
Maybe that's why it sounds so good.. it's built like a Marshall.
 

tallcoolone

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What I mean by hardwired, is the tubescreamer components are in the amp, or parametric EQ settings, or cock wah circuit. Let's say you liked the sound of a cocked wah at a certain point in a JCM800. Then mod the JCM800 with that cocked wah circuit, and there you have it in one unit.
Again, just to be clear--you do not and have not ever owned a Friedman amp but you know that a tubescreamer is hardwired into them. That's your take.

Do you think that your opinion carries as much weight as the people who have actually played them?
 

ricksdisconnected

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I have found in Marshall vs. Friedman discussions that it is subjective but that the lines blur when it comes to blind comparison tests like the one that YouTube did between the DSL20 and the JJ. I don't think the guy meets the demographics you listed, except maybe doing it for the likes. I caught onto that video because he did some gut shots of a JJ before it and was impressed with what he saw. Then he did that comparison video and wasn't so impressed with the cost differences. Not that he didn't like the JJ. He did. He just felt the price difference wasn't worth it. Someone probably told him to try out the DSL20 to see what he thinks of the JJ after that.
thing is with these comparison videos, they find a tone that both amps can accomplish but sound the same at.
one amp is dropped down to meet the goal and one amp is almost always maxed out to achive
what they want to show you. can a DSL20 get "A" Friedman tone? it sure can, but maybe only 1 or 2 of the many many tones of the friedman. agend achieved.
 

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